Do You Want To Be My Friend?

Ya know -- I think that the world is a better place because I know the ins & outs of this woman's obsessions with other astronauts, extra-marital affairs, and adult diapers.

Don't you feel protected America?!?

Thanks news networks!

hey jordan, two weeks ago i went to a church that a friend invited me to and while i was there i was confronted with calvinism and predestination. it scared the crap out of me to think that myself and others are chosen or not specifically for one place or the other. in the two weeks since i've had my head in a sling looking up information. i've come across nominalist v. realist philosophies, the difference between calvin and augustine in how they view the scripture, and than i also came across arminianism. dude my head is going to exxxxplOde. sorry to burden you with this tough question, but your thoughts on calvinism and predestination?

I have been a member of the PCA church for a little more than a year. I was schooled on Calvin and the nasty ?P? word for several months before finally understanding and feeling comfortable enough to embrace the idea(s).

Growing up Baptist, I had a real hard time accepting that God ?chooses? some and denies others? I always thought that it was up to me? that my actions and reactions and choices and my ?magic prayer? would get me into the Kingdom.

But I gotta tell you man? it?s not about me.

And if you decide that you are going to believe, trust and lean on the word of God and take it as authoritative, infallible, inerrant and God-breathed? you have to know that predestination is real. And when you?re able to believe that and understand it, it?s no longer a scary thing. It?s the most liberating ?ah-ha!? you?ll ever have.

That?s what God?s Grace is all about. That?s how we are able to say, ?I am fallen, but I am HIS? By His stripes, I am healed.? Determinism and free will and other concepts minimize God?s authority and puts the onus on us. Talk about SCARY!

If I have to depend on ME to get to heaven? I?m screwed.

I think that asking questions and doubting and calling BS and getting pissed off and not believing and searching and being driven nuts by all the terminology and concepts and crap like TULIP? are all part of God?s plan for us? and will ultimately draw us closer to His word and will ultimately allow Him to delight in us even more.

Read ?Knowing God? by JI Packer. It?s devastatingly real and will probably answer a bunch of questions.

(I usually write about busted condoms and personified hormones on this site. This has been refreshing)

Billy thanks for the reply. well....I have never thought about predestination (at least not in the way that calvinists do), but still i wonder. how are we (the church) supposed to react to the rest of the world that is not chosen to go to heaven. "oh, I'M chosen/elect....sorry,sux to be you" ?? i have never believed that by my choice to accept or not accept the grace of God that i am taking away God's glory. it doesnt mean that i am depending on me to get to heaven, because i recognize that it is the gift of grace. not my own doing, but Christ's work on the cross. also, in my research, as i mentioned earlier, i came across nominalist philosophy, which seems to take the position that God is so free and without limits that if He choses he can call evil good and good evil. Calvinist theology does not disagree with this philosophy so far as i've discovered. i tend to agree more with the realist philosophy , which sounds something more like " God is so free and without limits, that imperfect acts or evil are impossible for Him to commit. this doesn't mean He is restricted, but by not being bound by this things, He is completely free." so yeah whatever, i'm sure i messed up the idea with my stupid analogy, but i hope you get the gest of what im trying to say. at this point i am still looking into the philosophies some more and than i plan on researching the differences that exist between Calvin and Augustine and how they interpreted scripture.

Good thinking Matthew. Determinism does not add anything more to God, it actually takes something away from Him. God is so powerful and sovereign that He can allow us to have free will and real choice without compromising his omnipotence or sovereignty. A book I would recommend from one of the greatest current Christian thinkers is Chosen But Free by Norman Geisler. I hope no one takes this as a personal attack; I don't mean it that way. I'm just trying to promote good theology. Yes, the Bible certainly teaches predestination and election, but it also teaches that man has free will.

Sounds like Janice Chaffee believed in Jesus and claimed Him as her Savior.

At the end of every "discussion" we might have about theological perspectives and this versus that and so on... and at the end of our lives... that's all that really matters.

Thoughts and prayers go out to Jim and his family.

im sorry....i've tried to let this matter go , but the fact is i just cant. i dont understand how people can brush this subject off as just a difference in theology. as if this is just some minor detail or matter. to believe in predestination or double predestination (however we call it) is not a difference of perspective. to believe in predestination would change the entire character of God. if predestination is true than i'm not sure i would like to be in God's party. it scares me to say this, but if im predestined to hell, whats it matter?

I have borrowed a few of the words below. Not because I do not believe them, but because I am not smart enough to come up with them by myself. Here goes:

We are fallen, and we need God's grace for salvation. I have not heard an argument against that fact, so I'll assume we all believe that's the case.

God is sovereign. Again, I haven't seen or heard folks disagree. Not here, anyway. But to say that predestination would "change the entire character of God" is flat wrong. I would submit that the truth of predestination is wrapped up in the very character of God. He is sovereign. He is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient.

He is unchanging.

I agree that predestination is not a perspective to embrace or deny. It's a biblical truth. It may not be a comfortable biblical truth, but that doesn't make it any less true. Again, as a believer, I find freedom in this truth. Call me selfish, but I like the idea...

God has made salvation possible for anyone who wants it. He already knows who will accept His plan of salvation. This does not negate man's choice; rather it is confirmation of God's grace that some do choose salvation. Predestination means "to mark out or determine before hand." It may raise some intellectual problems, but that is because man tries to wrap his finite mind around an infinite God. However, those who accept the gift of salvation become the ?elect? of God.

?Furthermore, because of Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us from the beginning, and all things happen just as he decided long ago? (Ephesians 1:11).

well Billy.....i guess what i meant by saying that predestination would change the character of God was this: i could not concieve of Him saying "i will make this person to go to hell" that does scare me. its a scary thought. i mean come on. i agree with what you said :

"God has made salvation possible for anyone who wants it. He already knows who will accept His plan of salvation. This does not negate man's choice; rather it is confirmation of God's grace that some do choose salvation."

so what you're saying is God knows what our actions are going to be,but that doesnt mean that he forces our actions? because thats what i believe. but i dont think thats what Calvinists believe though. don't Calvinist believe that God choose whom will come to Himself and whom would not? i dunno...i do know this though. I've looked into the life of the man John Calvin and he had people killed that did not agree with his theology. Did Peter or Paul kill those that did not believe or agree with them?

I think the biggest problem with Predestination v. Free Will arguments is that we force ourselves to decide that one or the other is right. There are verses in the Bible that point toward predestination (Rom 8:30) and yet there are verses like II Peter 3:9 that seems to suggest free will. I believe that we serve a God who is so great that it can be both, and we don't need to choose one or the other, rather just trust that God can know who will be saved yet alow free will at the same time.

I think that Predestination is is a very difficult thing to understand. And I think that Free Will is a very comfortable way to believe.

But the fact remains that belief in Christ and faith in His promises is the key to this whole "mystery." Again, we're trying to wrap our heads around something supernatural, and complete understanding will just flat-out not happen.

And I think that's where faith comes in.

Romans 8:30 is a great verse. I would also urge you to visit verses 28 and 29 as well.

i can suggest Deuteronomy 30:19-20.
we can throw scripture back and forth i suppose, but it would just never end. the way john calvin killed those that opposed his theology though is very troubling to me. that is not how we are called to live for God. if we are going to discuss the thoelogy of john calvin, we must also address history and the life of the man. how he lived his life after all is far more important than what he said or wrote. now i know he also did good, but that does not mean that his transgressions are outweighed by his good works. after all, no one is truly good. does his life resemble that of Christ's or the Disciples? they never killed a person for opposing them or for refusing to believe. the reformation came from men who thought the catholic church was corrupt and needed change. the reformation however, originated from the catholic church. and what followed? catholics killing protestants and vice versa. than in america, protestants killing supposed witches in the salem witch trials. im getting of topic though... but i reject john calvin and his theology.

Guys, I love the conversation happening on this board. getting into theology has never been one of my strong points, so thanks to Billy, Michael and Andrew for responding and getting the conversation going.

As for myself, there are aspects of Calvinism I agree with (total depravity for instance). i guess i'd say i'm a 3-4 point Calvinist, which would not technically be a Calvinist.

Recently, I keep drawing back to Christ, and almost Christ only, because his words seem to be the most inarguable base. Everything else is in question, and has been debated since the beginnings of the Church, sometimes using the same scripture.