Jacques Ellul - Anarchy and Christianity

Yeah, I should read Jacques Ellul. Maybe he could help me out. I didn't vote for governor last time around and I'm still trying to figure out if I should feel guilty about it.

I'm majorly conflicted about Christianity mixing with politics. Instinctively, I hate politics. They seem to cause a lot of argument. But I don't want to pass up an opportunity to make a difference just because politics make me uncomfortable.

I know government is necessary- for one thing, the American lifestyle I enjoy is made possible by laws and by the people who create and enforce them.

I know that. But sometimes I feel like a dollar in the hands of a politician does a lot less than in the hands of the homeless guy down the street.

I should probably start voting, though. I just don't know who/what to vote for, in all honesty...

Speaking of Romans, chapter 12 talks about the body of Christ having different parts, etc. That whole idea and especially verse 7 was helpful to me:
"...if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully."

I agree with Grace, in that I need to read this book. I did check out the wikipedia link and parts of what it has to say about Christian Anarchism seem particularly interesting such as the views to the early church during Acts. I'm not overly familiar with Shane Claiborne's Simple Life group in Philadelphia, but it would seem like this would be a modern day example of how the early Christians lived.

After reading Claiborne's book a lot can be said for the lifestyle he and his friends have chose, though he seems to advocate for Christians using their voice when it comes to politics.

I think the views on pacifism and keeping religious leaders from getting too politically involved are interesting as well. Groups such as Focus on the Family have drastically gotten away what I view as the message of Jesus the more they get involved in politics.

One thing I found troubling though was the small part about those Christian anarchists that oppose paying taxes. I say troubling because I think this conjures up images of cults in my mind. As well it seems to go against the teachings mentioned in Romans.

I think reading this book may require a different look at how I view the word anarchy, but it's going on my to-read list as it should probably go on many people?s.

I also go back and forth with politics ... on one hand I see how those without our freedoms die to achieve the right to vote and yet the whole American (and my Canadian) system seem so completely different from the ideal.

When I look in scripture I see a messed up political system in Jesus' time and yet he chose to shake things up with the idea of loving God and your neighbor. Paul lived in a unbelievably corrupt time as far as government is concerned and yet I don't read about petitions, letter writing campaigns and protests. He also seemed to change the world with the gospel. Throughout history we see that so many of our social programs that we now consider the role of government started out as Christians fulfilling the gospel.

I guess what I wonder is, if we were truly living out the total gospel (fully caring for people and their whole needs) would politics even matter? Instead we see gobs of christians not LIVING the gospel but speaking so loudly on our behalf in the political realm ... it seems kinda ridiculous. Then again I probably sound so idealistic ...

Colin,

Not paying taxes is one area I disagree with. The "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" is pretty clear.

Grace,

While it's true the United States is a paragon for religious freedom, where in Scripture does it say that should matter?

I'm reminded of how the Church in former Soviet Bloc countries (Ukraine in particular) thrived despite not being legally able to worship. Which would cause you to trust God more: having all the freedom in the world to live the American way, or being constantly under threat of imprisonment because of the God you follow? It boggles my mind when American Christians speak of the persecution they face in this country.

Hmmm... religious freedom is one thing, but there is also health care, welfare, and other things to consider.

I don't find anywhere in scripture anything about Christians needing a government that allows for religious freedom, but there is the whole, "take care of the poor" thing, in Amos and in the Gospels (Matthew 25:40) and in a million other places.

If taking an active role in government allows for helping people, then maybe I should take an active role. That's all I'm saying.

My only hang-up is that maybe government isn't so directly helpful. That maybe by worrying about politics I am missing out on opportunities to make a more direct difference.

So, that's what I meant.

I completely agree with you about American Christians having it easy. Sometimes I find it hard to live with myself. I have the privilege of knowing Christians from more hostile environments and they are both inspiring and humbling.

I would be lying if I said I've reconciled within myself being rich and being a Christian. If I am suffering any persecution, it is more from the "wretched man that I am" than from anywhere else.

The best I am doing now is in loving people who are near to me, as deeply as I can. When the whole world seems a little too big to love, I start with my neighbors. I don't do THAT well, and if I did, it wouldn't be enough.

Grace,

I think you hit the nail on the head: we are called to help the poor, but that goes far beyond setting up governmental organizations to do it for us (oftentimes ineffectually).

Ideally, Christians should be helping the poor in any way we can. Of course, the church doesn't always do that, but I wonder if our involvement in government has allowed us to take a laissez-faire approach: "I help the poor through my taxes, so I don't need to personally do anything."

Now, from a secular standpoint, there should certainly be state-run assistance, because otherwise greed would run rampant and corporations would run everything (setting us back to the Carnegie-Rockefeller Corporate empire era).

That sounds about right.

Another problem with the laissez-faire mentality: it completely ignores the heart. Maybe I'm wrong, but the Bible seems to be pretty clear about the heart being important.

I doubt that a guy buying a new car is really thinking about the percentage of his consumerism that's benefiting the poor. If his heart is not involved, something is missing, I think.

"But the LORD said to Samuel, 'Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.'" -1 Samuel 16:7

Jordan I appreciate your comments on the growth of the church in areas where the government tried its best to repress the growth of Christianity. There are several articles available on the growth of Christianity in Communist China that supports that statement as well.

Jordan and Grace-I also appreciate the comments on Christian persecution in America. I live in the Bible Belt where anyone who is asked not to publicly display a nativity scene is considered a modern-day martyr and failure to pray before a football game may cause God to let the other team win.

It seems a lot of times that people draw lines politically and seem to think that who holds the oval office may somehow change the effectiveness of their being able to practice Jesus? teachings. Would James Dodson less effectively focus on families if a Democrat held the presidency?

If I?m just looking at the life of Jesus I think he could have entered into any political setting and gotten His message across. I do think he advocated for people to be good, law abiding citizens in order to show love, but I don?t think it mattered much to him who was in charge at the time. If there was a situation where people were grossly being mistreated by their government I think He would have found Gandhi?s and Martin Luther King Jr.?s approach much better than those today who verbally and physically attack those they feel persecute them.

Problems occur when we draw lines in the sand politically. I?m currently reading Brian McLaren?s book ?The Secret Message of Jesus? and it?s challenged me to look a little at the politics of Jesus as well as ?God?s Politics? by Jim Wallis. However, it appears to me that when Jesus even begins to look political it?s because he felt those holding power where misrepresenting the God the professed to believe in or were not showing love on others. I never get the feeling that He was arguing with political leaders to protect the sanctity of his own rights.

Collin, I completely feel your pain. I am from rural Alabama.

And, sadly, I too have witnessed a kind of martyring that is not OF Christians but rather BY them.

That last comment spelled out why I am hesitant, ok, downright afraid to engage in politics sometimes.

It's that fear, though, more than anything, that tells me maybe I should. I'm not sold either way, as of now.

Yes, Ellull is good. If nothing else, he makes us think - and perhaps realize with a shudder how far from anything like a "Christian" nation we are.

Both political parties are, of course, obsessed with their own perpetuation - they are human creations after all. It is foolish to expect moral clarity or consistency from what is primarily a collection of disparate individuals with distinct intentions, perceptions and motives.

I use as my compass point - what would Jesus do?

Well duh, he'd pray first, then vote or not, with full confidence in God's soveriegnty.

Another of the rare breed - of actual thinkers with a Biblical basis (as opposed to the shrill self-serving "religious" voices of today - that surely, Jesus would hate - and they would hate him) is Wendell Berry. Especially his books "Life is a miracle" or "The Citizenship papers".

I better stop now, or the Patriot police will be knocking on my door...