On “Getting it Wrong-ality” - A Response

Yes, Magenta, Yes!

Magenta wrote: "I'd personally prefer an environment where we all feel like we don't have to come clean, but can walk in the fact that as believers, we are already cleansed in Christ, and are in the process of having our behavior and choices shaped by Him. That will only begin to come about when we realize that if we lose respect for someone because of their struggles, we haven't been paying close enough attention to the reality of our own imperfection."

That is a beautiful paragraph. It's not about finger pointing and who is doing wrong, it's about each individual journey with the Lord and what He would like to change in us. Once we establish that attitude in our hearts, we can then effectively minister to all who are open and effectively pray for those who are not open. In the end, it is not about whether a certain group of people accepts you or not, it's about what Jesus has changed in you. Jesus can change you using many different means, including and excluding the Church Body - He is God. If the church is not responsive to His call of ministry, there are other ways. That's not to say that an unresponsive Church is OK, is just saying that God is bigger than that.

And, as always in a group of people, the good kind of change can only occur in individual hearts, not as a sheep mentality. Once we are accountable to ourselves in regards to our own sin, then we can be humble enough to encourage and exhort another out of their sin.

Once again, Magenta, this was a great response, and said many things I, for various reasons, could not say.

Thank you.

I'd like to buy you a beverage and listen to you think out loud. Who knows? It may happen. The world is small and full of coincidence.

Tina - you said a mouthful yourself, girlfriend; thank you!

Sara - God willing, I would love that opportunity! Anything is truly possible...

Magenta, Thank you!

The previous article and reponses left me disheartened and frustrated. And, I've learned (finally!) not to engage in the discussion. It becomes too taxing and hopeless.

However, after reading what you've written my heart is hopeful.

Keep it up!

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but it sounds as though what's being proposed here is to love and listen, nothing more. That we have no effective role in the lives of others, and that we trust their individual experience with Christ to work itself out the way Christ wants it to.

If that is so, where do the books of the Bible that are dedicated to the upkeep of the Way fit in? The ones where the Holy Spirit lays down how we are to behave with and towards each other? Where does exhortation fit in? Accountability?

Whether Biblical or not, the church has apparently drawn a line between sinning occasionally and a life-style dominated by sin. Gossip, greed and many sins have passed that imaginary line of "needing to be dealt with" by fellow believers. I think that line exists in the place where a sin is not only a deviation from God's will, but a direct bee-line toward dire consequences. If the believers that are close to you notice a sinful behaviour in your life that is building momentum and gaining ground in your life, aren't they responsible to bring it to you and remind you of what Christ has said about that thing? I know there are times in my life where I have not seen a sin in my life, and I wasn't interested in looking for it, but it was brought to my attention by my wife, or close friend that could see what was happening. Hasn't God given us eachother to sharpen and support?

If we are living in the grace of God, we should be instruments of His grace... Christ loved us enough to not leave us the way we were. We can't simply pray for the hungry, we need to feed them. I see strength in accountability, and Biblical truth in supporting one another in love. I guess I've stopped talking about the subject. And maybe I'm off... I certainly didn't mean it to seem that we need to be reminding an individual of their sin on a constant basis...

Of course, sin is sin. And I don't want to be comfortable with it wrecking someone else's life, simply because I have sinful things in my own life. I need to deal with mine as well, but to let my sister or brother fall seems just as evil as leaving mine undealt with.

James,

What, exactly, did Christ say about "it"?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that part of what Magenta is trying to get at is that this issue is not black and white. Theologians don't agree and I think reasonable people can disagree on the matter. In light of these questions who are we to tell our friends and loved ones that their very identity, as they believe it to be, is sinful in nature?

Tell me more about the direct bee-line to dire consequences, specifically as it relates to homosexuality. I'd be surprised to find a list that can't also be applied to heterosexuality.

I really challenge you to consider again why you believe homosexuality is a sin. As a church we have, at different times, been very wrong. My belief is that we are getting this wrong, and in doing so are pushing thousands of people further from the truth of a loving God.

I'd really appreciate a response.

One thing that occurs to me as I read the post from James is that personal accountability is not found in the bible its all linked to god; In proverbs Solomon says As iron sharpens iron one friend sharpens the other.

Without building trust from genuine love you cant speak into someones life. Not much but my take.

James,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the article!

Please know that I am in no way opposed to the idea that God uses us in the lives of others, to draw us toward Him and living for His glory. My objection is to the traditional way in which we have interpreted that mandate: human-driven manipulation and attempts at control, as opposed to loving relational engagement and modeling Christ. What I see in John 16 is Christ saying that the Holy Spirit will convict people as to sin and righteousness and judgment; I can't find anything saying that is our role. Though He may give us an assist now and again, my bet is that it is most often through our lives instead of our mouths, if we're really in tune with Him.

I'm saying that only someone who falls in love with Christ will have the desire, rather less the ability, to live a God-honoring life. When He says "If you love me, you will obey my teaching" in John 14, I hear that you can't separate the love from the obedience; the love has to come first; and He, the Truth, is the one to be obeyed, not the assumed truth of any one of us. I trust that He's fully capable and willing to guide others in that Himself, as He does me. He's the one, direct Source of power and light, love and truth: the true Vine. Our job is to help get people connected.

We are the blind trying to lead the blind, however hard that is for us to accept. And for what little vision we do have, if we only have eyes for Him, He becomes all we can then point out to others. And He is enough.

Thank you, for this article. I know that I personally fall far from perfrection. I've been plagued my entire life with "he who is without sin cast the first stone". If we plan on throwing stones at sin, I need to get some new armor. There are so many of us who have used our "Christianity" as a badge of authority in what Magenta has called the "Moral police.

Using Christ as a model, the one thing I know I can do is engage people in relationships and love. That means accepting, even seeking out friendships with all people of God (everyone), regardless of there sexual preferences. Wherever any of us stand on this debate, I think we would agree that God created us all in love and loves us all. Are we to do any less?

You are awesome, "Magenta". I would also like to buy you a beverage.

I think this response was unnessesary. I think you and Jessica are 90%+ saying the same thing and are pushing the same direction. The other few percent are not worthy of a very negative article. James said alot of what I was thinking. What I've come to know is that , indeed, what we all have with Christ is an alive and active relationship. The way I've come to know and love that is by my alive and active relationsips with my family, friends and mentors. How else could we know what a relationship is? I have become thoroughly convinced that the disigned purpose for human relationships is to be a bridge built strong enough to bear the weight of Truth. Without the Love that identifies our message tot he world, Truth is a very hurtful thing but never should truth be kept silent. Love first, Truth second I think that's what you're both saying.

Last thing, let's not highlight the negative. The other 90% is much more worthy of writing.

I think I run a mix of both approaches - Magenta's and James'. At least, I try to.

I tend to save my truth in love moments for those friends who have given me permission for that level of honesty. By permission I mean either a literal permission ("listen, if you see me screwing up, let me know?") or a permission that is earned simply by sincerely being there. Sometimes I will be perfectly frank with people I don't know very well, but in general there is an unmistakable prompting of the Holy Spirit to do it.

A friend of mine is a social worker. She always encourages me to preface my hard truths with "can you handle an honest moment?". If the answer is no, I must and can respect that. If the answer is yes, I have fairly warned my listener. I think sometimes we can get so caught up in defending our position, or speaking the hard truths, that we forget to show kindness to the hurt that we are speaking to. A very wise man once reminded me that God can defend himself - he doesn't leave that job to me.

I have often heard the "love but don't accept" argument. This seems to be a position that balances the hard line and the love of Christ. Show love to your sinning friends, but don't accept how they act. The problem is that people preach this but I have yet to see someone practice it. Not with true love, that is. It is love that wants to change the other. I think we all know what its like to be "loved" by someone who wants us to be a different person that they would love even more. It doesn't feel like love. In fact, its rather selfish, isn't it? The way this philosophy strikes me is more like, "show your friend what they must do for you to love them". I have thought about this a great deal lately. What is love, anyway? What is it that my friend really needs? In many cases my friends have heard enough that they are sinners. In too many cases they have heard it too much. Do they really need to hear it again? Even if I were to completely pull off the love but not accept, in a way that Christ himself would do, I'm afraid that for many it would register as condemnation no matter what. There is more to this than the delivery and the intentions of the heart. There is a history to the listener that must also be considered.

It's easily demonstrated that homosexuality has been blown out of proportion by church culture. Think about liars. I lie often - I withhold full truths, I colour my responses to reflect well on me, and I occasionally invent outright falsehoods. The Bible says that liars go to hell. I'm a liar - but I'm welcome in the church, no questions asked. My sin must be more okay than yours then, mustn't it? I'm afraid that's what we come across as saying.

Many good points Magenta! I certainly don't see homo-sexual marriage the way we are told to see it as christians. I'm involved with youth group at a church. You ask those kids how many have been affected by homo-sexual marriage and I doubt you'll see any hands. Why don't we criticize divorce the way we attack homosexuality? This article and many others are correct in that we will attack the sin we lack the struggle with!!!!

Divorce is destroying our kids, not homosexuality! I believe it was said," Take the timber out of your own eye. That you may help your neighbor take the sliver out of their eye."

Many people that will tell you about the Bible saying that homosexuality is an abomination to God, or will take a strong stand on abortion. Will side step what it says about honoring your marriage vows. Both of these articles were very well written! I see the second as a refining of the first!

Hello again.
Like Sara, I run a mix of Magenta & James' approaches. And I am James.

What I wrote was meant to supplement what I thought was a very thought-out argument. I also agree with Eric, that most of what was said agrees in part with Jessica's original article. (While I don't think this one was unnecessary.)

Some thoughts, and a requested response.

First, the response:
Lisa asked me to re-evaluate why I believe homosexuality a sin. This conversation has centered primarily around the presupposition that homosexuality is indeed a sin, so this response may seem out of place or preachy... but I was asked, so please forgive me for stating why I personally believe that homosexual behaviour (not temptation) is a sin.

I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God. I've presented my doubts to God, and received the answers I was looking for. In the old and new testaments, homosexuality is listed along with many other actions that displease God, or sins. Therefore, I am basing my belief in the fact that sin exists, let alone what it is, on the Bible. I have found that the English Standard Version is very accurate and speaks in a way that I have found benefitial to my personal study.

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Alright, now for a few thoughts.

I want to say thanks for even hearing what I have to say. I am far from being a scholar, and base my comments on my life with Jesus, and have no formal schooling in the matter, so forgive me if I don't match up sometimes...

Magenta: You made a comment that the righteousness in our lives will serve as the example the Holy Spirit can use to convict and correct sin in the lives of our fellow christians... at least most of the time. (If I understood correctly) And that occassionally we will be used to speak to a person regarding a sinful behaviour.

In my opinion, God has built us models in life that tie into one another. Parenting, marriage, the church, friendship, work. He gave us the idea of God the Father and Son to communicate a similarity, not a reality of God having a stellar god-baby. We have marriage to better understand the intimacy of what a relationship with God can be. We have parenting to better understand sacrifice and unconditional love. (you don't choose your children like you do a spouse...) All of these models and examples use us in verbal way. We are called on to love in word and deed. My words of warning to my son, or my words of concern for my friend, or my communication with my wife over something that may be hurting our relationship... all these things bring about change. Whether in my heart, or theirs. But all in all, I cannot see a reason that accountability to scripture in the church should be mainly silent. Should we listen better, ABSOLUTELY. But speaking when you should is exhorting another. Encouraging them to hold to the oaths they've made. By holding them to their confession of Christ, and reminding them of their freedom from sin in Him... that seems at the core of what we believe.

Let me know what you think...

Second, and lastly.

Eric mentioned something that really caught my ear, about truth hurting.

I couldn't agree more.
I have been surprised and impressed that no matter how much truth hurts, though... It has never harmed me. It pains me, but restores me. After it shocks my system, it corrects my actions. I have found that I'm less and less afraid of learning the truth because of that realization.

I've gone on too long. What are your thoughts?

Ahh! I missed one!

Lisa mentioned that there are similarities, and often identical repercussions of hetero and homosexual behaviors.

I completely agree.

Thinking about this issue some more, I think I'd have to say that part of the problem comes from the way we use the word "sin." When I say homosexual acts = sin (which I think is what I meant by not erasing the taboo), I'm defining sin as failing to reflect God perfectly. By that definition, lots and lots of things are sin, things even more innocuous than lying.

Anyway, I'm just trying to strike a balance between saying that homosexuality is natural and good and God-ordained, and saying that homosexuals are all filthy, depraved human beings on par with child molesters and Ted Bundy. They don't deserve that distinction. It's a balance I'm admittedly not great at striking, just like everyone who ever said, "Love the sinner; hate the sin," a sentence which rarely makes very much sense.

I just wanted to call attention to the problem is all, and hearing from Marc and Jimmy on the previous thread of posts made me realize how lonely and frightening and desperate things really are for some members of the Church. It makes my heart hurt.

Sara, love that "honest moment" thing - stealing it! ;) Thank you!

I really want to be clear that in no way was this article intended to be a personal attack on Jessica or her point of view. I simply wanted to bring a perspective to bear on her commentary that I have found largely lacking in most Christian contexts. Perhaps we are closer together than I originally may have perceived - both of our hearts "hurt". As I see it, we simply differ somewhat in our prescription to remedy that pain.

My hope in writing was to spur thought and discussion, and hopefully facilitate opportunity for the Spirit of God to work on all hearts involved; mine included. I believe that was accomplished, and for that I am honored and grateful.

If it is "negative" to challenge each other's perspectives and thereby stimulate respectful dialogue, then I will plead guilty and take that hit. I see it instead as the very exhorting encouragement that James has been talking about - reserved for those of us who willingly invite and engage others for that same purpose (my answer to your comment, James - emphasis on "willingly invite and engage"). I do the same with my gay friends as much as my straight ones, Christian or not, as much as God gives me opportunity. I also love to receive that same "sharpening", because I truly want to be shaped by God through those whom He uses to do so - even when it hurts. I see this magazine and forum as a place where that kind of activity is sought and encouraged, and i'm thankful for it.

Thank you all!

Hey, Magenta. I didn't see this as an attack at all. And you're right, the more voices we have describing the problem, the more likely we are to understand it and move toward a solution. I still have no clear idea of what that solution is, but this whole discussion has made me more optimistic.

Blessings, all!

I am always fascinated at the exchange of ideas at this site. Sometimes they are thought provoking and help me put flesh on the skeleton of my faith. Several years ago I read a book called "the Spirit of the Disciplines", unnerving. Within its pages it outlines the practices that Christians need to be engaged in in order to "take up your cross daily" and develope a lifestyle that is in keeping with the things we say we believe. As I read about the discipline of chastity, which is the appropriate place of sex in our lives, I began to see sexual sin in a new way. As a Christian I do believe the bible to be the word of God and I have to take the parts that make me feel good as well as the parts that make me nervous. If I take only the comfortable then I am creating the religion and that doesn't do me any good. So that means sexual sin whether hetero or homo is short of ideal that God created. Do not despair there is redemption and cleansing, check out 1cor 6:9-11. keep exploring and talking and learning we are sharpening each other, this is sort of like the Algonquin End Table:)

Well, I was struck by Jessica's article and Magenta's response. I have thought about this for some time.

"I?d personally prefer an environment where we all feel like we don?t have to ?come clean?, but can walk in the fact that as believers, we are already cleansed in Christ, and are in the process of having our behavior and choices shaped by Him."

This is how I want to live, especially because I have struggles, certain sins that I come up against over and over again, they are more personal, interior, between God and I things and sometimes they are how I think and treat people. If I lived in community, where people felt the need to point out how horrible my sin was or how bad I was for still struggling then the freedom to be changed by God wouldn't be there.

I hope that individuals who find it difficult to give up to God that which is under His control, the ability to change us, will find freedom in releasing their need to be right and freedom to love.